to quote you

How do you explain the 1000s of testimonies of restored families, lives, and people fulfilling their roles in the Kingdom as a result of their CR? Have you spent time with them to know their hearts? Are they saved? How did they change…on their own? Do you know that hey dont turn to the Word for the answers? HOw much time have you spent with them?

Answer those questions and Ill never go to CR again…I promise.

Have people been wounded by people in CR, of course. People are involved. The Bible says your own church has people who have messed up in the ministry..is your church bad?

CR states clearly in weekly announcements to the groups: CR is not the church. We encourage you to find and serve in your own home church. CR is a tool for helping people break self-destructive cycles using the Word of God.

That’s a cult? I’ve never heard of a cult that states clearly they are not the church and they encourage to find and serve in a home church.

Instead of deleting, can you answer any of these questions?
John S.

Jesus never taught us to drive cars, but they’re tools we use to get to church.

Let me ask you: How do you explain my life changing through CR? My passion for Jesus and His purposes in the earth? How thanks to CR, the Bible is the final authority on all matters in my life?, Or Jessica Browns redemption? Or Brad Rutledge? Or His wife Renee? Or their daughters? Or Mac Owens? Or Mary Owens? Or John Bakers? How many hours have you spent with these names to assess they are not healed and if they are, it wasnt through CR? Or that they are not Holy Spirit lead? Or that they are saved or not saved?

The problem with your arguments are: They don’t explain away the fruit. The indisputable truth.

If CR were fruitless, bound to one culture, or some other sign of humanism, I’d say your expelling energy to a just cause. But the lives and families restored are real.

Again, I challenge you to explain the friut way. Come to our CR. You’re always welcome.

My responce

“How do you explain the 1000s” wow not that impressive then I have got examples of 10s of thousands who have used secular psychology and claimed the same results figures are meaningless to me, CR is an adaptation of the CR that is promoted via CBT even services offered through the CMHT’s, Psychoanalytic therapy, psycho dynamic therapy etc have through its own clinical trails have produced the same result, people can recover with out God this is proven time and time again, what you have done is in the root of CR have adapted psychological sciences and its methods and adapted it into your own practices under the banner of being christian many have done this even with christian yoga etc

and you then claim “and people fulfilling their roles in the Kingdom as a result of their CR?”, yes and men like brian mclaren claim the same things your drawing on peoples emotions to meet an ends, this is a technique we used in psychology called mindfulness, emotion is the most powerful aid to recovery acording to the research done through Government.

you said “Have you spent time with them to know their hearts? Are they saved? How did they change…on their own? Do you know that hey dont turn to the Word for the answers? How much time have you spent with them?”

and wow could not be done had it not been for CR then I wonder what they would have done 50 years ago, who is talking about mens hearts Jeremiah said the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately evil. how dare the word of God make that judgement.

I have spent 9 years working even a few times amongst professionals who are stationed at high secure psychiatric wards many are medicated and with out it would be unstable, and yes Many do recover and are discharged, I have been on committees setting up units in 3 hospitals working along side directors amongst mental health unites again your 1000′s of examples do not convince be when the evidence from the Health Care Professionals out weighs what you have presented here they are not based on factual evidence by anecdotal reports what makes what you do dangerous is simply because it is not recognized nor supported by any health care professionals here in the UK to use such practices you would be reported to the HPC and the BPS.

The problem with what you present here is a misrepresentation of recovery but then again Rick Warren is good at twisting things.

Please preside any supported evidence from any health care authority that this has been approved.

I feel that for me your response reminds me of the Church of Scientology as they also promote CR but in a different way.

It takes 8 years to get a doctorate in medicine, 4 years to train as a psychiatric nurse and another 4 years to get your PHD, and here you are after a 6 months course giving people this impression that you somehow are an authority and a leading expert on issues of health this is if anything blatantly arrogant if not dangerous, and I see your fruit in what you say is not actually biblical.

You draw on lived experience of people who use CR and if you put it in to question then, I am accused of judging a persons heart please don’t use that one on me again as no where have I mentioned the People who use CR, but I specifically put into Question CR itself.

2Cr 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

Let’s give a test of “the heart”. Some believe out of ignorance, or just plain lie and state you cannot know what is inside of a man’s heart. Jesus himself says the opposite:

Mat 15:18 “BUT THE THINGS THAT PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH COME FROM THE HEART, and those defile the man.

So the test is this: What is coming out of our mouths? What and or who are we boasting about?

1Cr 1:31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

-and again-

2Cr 10:17-18 But HE WHO BOASTS IS TO BOAST IN THE LORD. For it is not he who commends himself that is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.

Jer 9:24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the LORD.

Psa 20:7 Some boast in chariots and some in horses, But we will boast in the name of the LORD, our God.

You see, it is easy to discern on where a person’s loyalty actually is founded. [When] one knows the real Jesus, you will see clearly as conveyed throughout the scriptures that they will “always” and “exclusively” boast about Jesus only. Testimonies are our foundational statement towards who our God actually is. What comes out of your mouth is easy to discern (where your loyalty is) and (who your God is).

Deu 5:7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

Who and or what do you boast about?:
Is recovery your God? Is this the religion of your boasts?
Is CR your God? Is this the religion of your boasts?
Is the 12 Steps your God? Is this the religion of your boasts?
Is the real God your God “Father” and “Jesus” and “Holy Spirit”? Is it Jesus alone that you solely rely upon and boast?

Who is your God?
You (can) tell by what comes out of your mouth.

{34}What someone thinks is called an “opinion”,
{33}What God has done for you and me is indisputable truth.
{32}Why the debate about Celebrate Recovery?
{31}CR is a global ministry with testimonies of {30}change and families restored that are countless. {29}The numbers of {28}people who walk {27}in freedom AND are now serving {26}their purpose in the kingdom is in the thousands.
{25}Please disprove this if you can. {24}I know the names and can direct you to them.
{23}Come to the Summit at Saddleback in August…{22}you’re going to be very busy and frustrated convincing 4000 CR leaders {21}they’re not free of the past, {20}their change is not of the Holy Spirit, {19}and they are not thriving in spiritual maturity.
{18}Regarding Celebrate Recovery’s 12 Steps:
{17}CR’s 12 steps are simply a tool for helping people find clarity in the chaos. {16}(Especially in the newcomer’s current state of mind.) {15}When a newcomer walks in the door, things are usually not going well and they are BEGGING for simple, easy to understand direction.
Telling other people that {14}CR is not biblical, {13}that it’s a burden, {12}or that it doesn’t work is absurd is not the truth.
{11}My Advice/Opinion:
{10}If a person is keying in on disproving a ministry that produces this much fruit, run for your life!
{9}This personality is motivated by pride and arrogance, seeking to elevate themselves above successful ministry leaders. {8}They can’t make their case in short, simple phrases because mistruths take a lot of work to “support”. {7}They set confusion into the air with wordy arguments… {6}notice comments where people stated they were “confused” after reading arguments that {5}“CR is not Biblical”.
{4}No matter what their spin, how intellectual they seem, or how many commentaries they offer …{3}they still have not explained away why CR has worked in thousands of lives in a {2}spiritual manner.

{1}Go to CR, find out for yourself.

———————————————-

Response by Brian Kercheval:

A critical observation:
This post unfortunately is typical from those who are enamored with man-made programs and religion above Jesus himself. Said types will convey pseudo Bible teaching and boast freedom yet are void of any reference using sound Biblical knowledge, teaching nor will they point to Jesus, they only boast about a program and not The Lord.

Let us start with the bottom comments and work our way up. On this, please forgive the very brief responses. I will be quick and direct only without any form of a comprehensive format.

{1} “Go to CR, find out for yourself”
This is exactly what I have done.
After being directly involved for around two years, I almost started my own meeting. Only after looking at, and studying all of the teaching in Celebrate Recovery, only then did I see clearly that this was neither “Bible Based” nor “Christ Centered”. These two primary boasts became lies that I could not truthfully support.
{2} “spiritual manner”
This self-proclaimed “spiritual manner” is nothing more than following steps/rules and a mirage of twisted Bible verses interlaced with humanistic psychological rooted philosophy.
{3} “explained away why CR has worked in thousands”
The operative word here is “worked”. I must give an accurate and tempered insight to my view. What I know is only some: I have witnessed/attended a relative few (perhaps 7) different meetings with an overall attendance of about 1,500 different people over the span of two years. During this time I have studied the efficacy regarding the primary goals of CR. Contrary to what one may preconceive; CR is a safe, caring and supportive place for those especially with hard addictions to really on for support and help. I see undisputable growth in The Lord in [some] CR attendees but, (in short) because of the overall teaching there remains on most only a thin veneer of Jesus barely held on by the glue of the religion of recovery. My overview is: God can and does work through such programs but it is not “because” of the program, only “despite” of it.
{4} “No matter what”
This is always a ploy for those who will side step the truth; simply accuse others of exactly what you are already doing.
{5} “CR is not Biblical”
Of course CR is not Biblical. Taking a very few scripture out of context then forcing them onto non-Biblical concepts and creating works is a syncretism, and is the farthest thing from being Biblical.
{6} “people stated they were ‘confused’”
There is confusion only when one is distracted from honest Biblical truth by telling them “recovery is the way” and as Rick Warren boasts publicly “everyone needs recovery” What a lie strait from the pit of hell! The Bible is clear on this; Everyone needs Jesus and Jesus only for all things.
{7} “wordy arguments”
When there is a “wordy” topic like these false teaching, people will receive understanding after the false teaching is addressed.
{8} “They can’t make their case in short, simple phrases because mistruths take a lot of work to “support”
So let me make it “short” Jesus did not teach anything even similar to the 12 steps. Therefore: To teach this as “the very words of Jesus” as boasted by Rick Warren and in the CR curriculum is one of the most obvious and eternally damming lies.
{9} “This personality is motivated by”
My heart and whole being is actually “motivated” by God’s love for me and you. In the future you may find your immature comment disgusting.
{10} “disproving a ministry that produces this much fruit”
What fruit? Where? If one is led by The Holy Spirit, they would have as stated in The Bible the fruit of the spirit. I see mostly a fake, plastic fruit, a pretend version of God’s power.
This is true Biblical fruit:
Galatians 5:22-24 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. NOW THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST JESUS HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH ITS PASSIONS AND DESIRES.
The list of the fruit of the Spirit describes an emotionally balanced, psychologically stable person. Because the Holy Spirit produces this naturally, why would anyone turn to worldly psychology and CR?
{11} “My Advice/Opinion”
Everyone’s perspective is always welcome; this can be a great starting place to grow. When it comes to directing a life, we must rely solely on God’s word and His Holy Spirit.
{12} “it doesn’t work is absurd is not the truth”
It’s nice to boast about some program but when one is led by the real Holy Spirit, there is absolutely no need whatsoever for such things, there never has been!
{13} “that it’s a burden”
Your right, it’s not a burden; this teaching is life sentence towards something you cannot achieve by perfect implementation of your works of steps and principles.
{14} “CR is not biblical”
There is nothing, anywhere in the entire Bible that remotely resembles the teaching of the 12 steps or recovery. There is nothing to recover because no one ever had it…
{15} “When a newcomer… easy to understand direction”
Only Jesus made it “easy” He always stated “repent” and “come to me” over and over. He never stated; work the step/work the principles/work the program/ work this/work that/ focus on your problems/read all of this and that/get a sponsor…
Jesus Says:
Mat11:28
“[Come to Me], all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls. “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
{16} “newcomer’s current state of mind”
My heart goes out to help those confused especially through alcohol and other drugs. What I have found is only The Lord Himself can and does direct those that are wade down by anything. He alone is All Mighty and alone He breaks through any barrier. This is a time where being truly led by His Spirit is critical for the well-being of those in need.
{17} “CR’s 12 steps are simply a tool for helping people find clarity in the chaos”
Sorry but all of Celebrate Recovery is pure chaos.
{18} “Regarding Celebrate Recovery’s 12 Steps”
Yes, regarding these “Steps” Do you have any idea where these 12 steps actually, truly came from. From a guy that channels demons, this according to his own book. Later, these demons would come and go as they pleased, according to him. Does that sound like the type of teacher you want to follow? Are you sure?
1 Timothy 4
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons…
{19} “not thriving in spiritual maturity”
Of course they are not spiritually mature. If they were, there would be no place whatsoever for these recovery false teachings in their life.
{20} “their change is not of the Holy Spirit”
That is correct; their change is not of the Holy Spirit. If it were the fruit of The Spirit would be present.
“Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” Instead, out of the mouth of every one of them I hear; My name is___ I STRUGGLE WITH____ That is the opposite of being mature in The Lord.
{21} “they’re not free of the past”
Even the founder Baker still acknowledges by testimony that “I struggle with alcoholism” It is obvious then that no one, even the founder has been set free.
{22} “you’re going to be very busy and frustrated convincing 4000 CR leaders”
When I was directly involved in CR, I watch the entire summit including all of the testimonies. The most revealing (and disgusting) part was during every testimony, the same comment was proclaimed; If it wasn’t for CR my life… Each testimony boasted exclusively about CR and NOT ONE said a single thing about Jesus. I have had enough of listening to CR ramblings and their leaders boasts, and as a follower of Jesus their comments are sickening.
{23} “Come to the Summit”
How about everyone at the summit leaves their recovery religion and come to the real Jesus instead? That sounds better!
{24} “I know the names”
Yes and also do I. I have even contact some.
{25} “Please disprove this if you can”
Easy: Are they relying on Jesus for all things now and eternal? Do they need anything besides the real Jesus? If so they are hollow, or shallow, or most likely have no idea who the real Jesus is.
{26} “their purpose in the kingdom is in the thousands”
My, what extreme boasts and brags! I don’t believe a word of it!
{27} “in freedom AND are now serving”
Excuse me but following a huge manual filled with psychobabble and scripture distortions is not free. Not even close…
{28} “people who walk”
Perhaps you may be referring to steps? Whose, which or witch steps?
Whose steps are you following anyway? Pick one!
a) Wilson and Smith
b) Baker and Warren
c) Jesus: To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in HIS STEPS. 1Pe 2:21
{29} “The numbers of”
If I were impressed by number, I would pick Buddha, the pope or even Joseph Smith, never Baker/Warren CR.
{30} “change and families restored that are countless”
I have seen up close some families change. Participants enamored with the recovery teachings truly always carry a self-righteousness that is indescribably massive.
{31} “CR is a global ministry”
I think we all know what CR is and isn’t.
{32} “Why the debate about Celebrate Recovery?”
People are being misled to a fake Jesus, a false gospel and a self-sanctification.
{33} “What God has done for you and me is indisputable truth”
Actually, The Bible makes it clear that only through the Holy Spirit directly can we know and understand what “truth” is. A start in real discernment is to understand what The Bible says and rely on it exclusively as final authority on all matters.
{34} “What someone thinks is called an ‘opinion’”
John Shelton,
It’s been a pleasure responding to your “opinion” about these matters. I hope that people would turn to Jesus the way He describes in the Bible never some man-made cheap imitation like CR.

Note:
The Holy Spirit cannot be achieved through any: steps; principles; methods; procedures; programs; techniques; factions; systems; approaches; guidelines; philosophies; platforms; doctrines; psychologies; etc. The Holy Spirit is a free gift given exclusively to those who have repented, are born again, worship and follow Jesus as Lord, abide exclusively in Him and are called according to His purpose.

Jesus did not teach any “program”. He never imposed “steps”, “principles” and procedures onto anyone. No special sponsors, no special sinners faction groups; He never asked anyone to introduce themselves with regard to a repented sin. Jesus did not establish any of this!

So why would anyone commit these teachings?

Either:
1) One must believe that Jesus does not have the power that He states
2) The real Jesus is not known

With the love of The Lord,
Brian Kercheval

Answer those questions and Ill never go to CR again…I promise.

Have people been wounded by people in CR, of course. People are involved. The Bible says your own church has people who have messed up in the ministry..is your church bad?

CR states clearly in weekly announcements to the groups: CR is not the church. We encourage you to find and serve in your own home church. CR is a tool for helping people break self-destructive cycles using the Word of God.

That’s a cult? I’ve never heard of a cult that states clearly they are not the church and they encourage to find and serve in a home church.

Instead of deleting, can you answer any of these questions?

Let me ask you: How do you explain my life changing through CR? My passion for Jesus and His purposes in the earth? How thanks to CR, the Bible is the final authority on all matters in my life?, Or Jessica Browns redemption? Or Brad Rutledge? Or His wife Renee? Or their daughters? Or Mac Owens? Or Mary Owens? Or John Bakers? How many hours have you spent with these names to assess they are not healed and if they are, it wasnt through CR? Or that they are not Holy Spirit lead? Or that they are saved or not saved?

The problem with your arguments are: They don’t explain away the fruit. The indisputable truth.

If CR were fruitless, bound to one culture, or some other sign of humanism, I’d say your expelling energy to a just cause. But the lives and families restored are real.

Again, I challenge you to explain the friut way. Come to our CR. You’re always welcome.

@Brian Kercheval

My work included in the past

To train Clinical Psychologists, and students, advising on the needs and views of people using specific parts of the Health Service,to improve the fit between what people want and what Services are provided. Part of my role, as a member of the Community Liaison Group (CLG,) is to advise Clinicians, students and the Academic Course Team with regards to the Post Graduate Curriculum in order to better improve health services within the following subjects.

Adult Mental Health
Child Mental Health
Working with People with Learning Disabilities
Physical Health Services.

My role also is to collaborate with external agencies, i.e. other Universities, Health Care Trusts, Strategic Health Authority, Mental Health Professionals, people involved in research, selection skills, public speaking, chairing meetings, and planning small projects.
I am also involved in setting up of e-learning within the department.

I am a member of the University Psychology Department Board sub-committee, and take part in the decision making process within the Faculty.

I also participate in the Postgraduate Student selection process, interviewing prospective candidates who are seeking to gain entrance onto courses, and the final decison making process of selection.

Outside of the University I have been raising awareness of Dyspraxia in adults and the issues surrounding varied disabilities which are neurologically based, but are often misunderstood as being a mental health issue by the wider society.

CR was part of our push to impact recovery methods used by the means of psychological services it is claimed through official government documentation that Psychology has by the most part been the root of pushing recovery through methods such as mindfulness used in CBT.

Though I covered mostly on Carl Gustov Jung as this was who the University of Manchester Majored on, I do not believe that statistically just because the evidence is conclusive to prove that people are “benefiting” from the use of these clinical methods groups like the WHO or the BPS etc are not showing the full story when it comes to why most of the psychological methods in the past failed.

in comparison to those who did not fail in their treatment to impact recovery, I cannot agree that CR compliments the Bible it rather contradicts scripture.

Because it is rooted in Secular and liberal philosophies .

Why the debate about Celebrate Recovery?
CR is a global ministry with testimonies of change and families restored that are countless. The numbers of people who walk in freedom AND are now serving their purpose in the kingdom is in the thousands.

Please disprove this if you can. I know the names and can direct you to them.

Come to the Summit at Saddleback in August…you’re going to be very busy and frustrated convincing 4000 CR leaders they’re not free of the past, their change is not of the Holy Spirit, and they are not thriving in spiritual maturity.

Regarding Celebrate Recovery’s 12 Steps:
CR’s 12 steps are simply a tool for helping people find clarity in the chaos. (Especially in the newcomer’s current state of mind.) When a newcomer walks in the door, things are usually not going well and they are BEGGING for simple, easy to understand direction.

Telling other people that CR is not biblical, that it’s a burden, or that it doesn’t work is absurd is not the truth.

My Advice/Opinion:
If a person is keying in on disproving a ministry that produces this much fruit, run for your life!

This personality is motivated by pride and arrogance, seeking to elevate themselves above successful ministry leaders. They can’t make their case in short, simple phrases because mistruths take a lot of work to “support”. They set confusion into the air with wordy arguments…notice comments where people stated they were “confused” after reading arguments that “CR is not Biblical”.

No matter what their spin, how intellectual they seem, or how many commentaries they offer …they still have not explained away why CR has worked in thousands of lives in a spiritual manner.

Go to CR, find out for yourself.